Setting Limits Chapter 5: Are Your Limits Firm or Soft

Okay, it's time for my Monday book review continuation.  I had really meant to keep this going through the holidays, but I'll admit it, I got sidetracked!  With all the moving and everything, it's not surprising.

So here we are again, back at Setting Limits Chapter 5.  This chapter refers to us as parents like a stop light.  Obviously green means go.  However, many parents give their children a yellow light and expect them to stop.  Let's be honest, how many of us really stop at a yellow light?  How many people actually speed up to try and get through before the light turns red?  That's kind of how soft limits can be to kids, like that yellow light that tells them they should stop, but they don't have to.  Kids need a solid red.

The author gives a pretty good list of "soft limit" expressing behaviors:

• Wishes, Hopes, and Shoulds
• Repeating and Reminding
• Speeches, Lectures, and Sermons
• Ignoring the Misbehavior
• Unclear Directions
• Ineffective Role Modeling
• Bargaining
• Arguing and Debating
• Bribes and Special Rewards
• Inconsistency Between Parents
• Ineffective Follow-Through

Each of these is followed by a good, clear description and why these limit setting behaviors aren't giving red lights like you may think they are.  Some of them are pretty obvious, but if you want to know more, I'd suggest you check out the book.

Then we get into the other half of things, tips for giving a good, clear, firm red light:

1. Keep the focus of your message on behavior.
2. Be direct and specific.
3. Use your normal voice.
4. Specify your consequence if necessary.
5. Support your words with action.

I think it is important that the author broke this up into five simple things to keep in mind.  It goes along with the repetition used in the end of the book.  The more reminders you have and the easier to remember, the more likely you'll get it and keep a solid understanding.

The one thing I do like about this chapter over the rest is hidden in the parent study questions is a little practice exercise.  This exercise is to practice setting firm limits with your children and note how they react.  Make note of them.

I have to say, finally, on chapter five, we're making it to the meat of the book!  Isn't this what the whole book was supposed to be about?  Learning how to implement firm limits?  It looks like the book is finally starting to get to its point!

Setting Limits Chapter 4: The Family Dance

Again, this chapter started off with a point of frustration already.  The author detailed what he calls "the Family Dance".  It's that back and forth that goes on in the family that doesn't get anything done.  He wanted to illustrate how many families "dance" for far too long when the best action is "not to dance at all."  He suggests doing this by his repeat of clear cut rules and immediate consequences.

In this chapter we look at two different families and their family dance.  Again, we have the diagrams of an average argument between parent and child.  They diagram this, and then they have each parent diagram the way their parents handled situations.  The idea was to prove that the "family dance" is an inherited thing, and while changing the end result does change things, it doesn't stop the repetition of whatever learned behaviors we have from our parents.  He does break things down into "verbal steps" and "action steps", and makes a very convincing point on the action steps stopping behaviors immediately while verbal steps only continue things further.  This is just slightly furthering things from the previous three chapters' examples.

At the end of the book there is one exercise I do find beneficial.  It has each parent diagram their own problem solving natures with their family, as well as their parent's way of dealing with misbehavior.  Then you are supposed to circle your own verbal steps and put a box around your own action steps.  Personally, I think this step could have easily come earlier in the book and chapters 2, 3, and 4 could have been condensed into one chapter, but I suppose I can't complain to much.  He certainly is making an effort to hit his point home, and repetition is the best way people learn.  Haven't I said that before?

The questions at the end deal with the diagram and the specific actions within it, identifying our own behaviors and linking them with that of our parents.  While the questions were interesting, I think that they would have had more of an impact if they had been more of a divergence from the previous chapter's questions.  I understand the goal of the repetitive nature is to build on each concept, but for me it takes away my interest in the questions.  Perhaps they would work better as study group questions.

Setting Limits Chapter 3: How Children Learn Your Rules

While the first two chapters focused on limits, why our children need them, and how we teach limits, this chapter turns around and looks at it from the child's point of view.  It's an easy to understand perspective on how children respond to the way we teach our limits to our children.  The whole idea is pretty basic and logical.

The chapter breaks down into several simple concepts.

1. Children understand concrete rules and limits (actions speak louder than words)
2. Children "research" rules in a concrete way (through testing limits rather than asking questions)
3. Temperament greatly effects how aggressively children will research ("compliant" children will generally do as their told in order to please the parent.  "Strong willed" children will generally aggressively test limits for deeper understanding).
4. Punitive parenting help children understand that violence is the way to solve problems.
5. Permissive parenting shows children that what a parent says is meaningless and they continue to push until they are met with action, which encourages frequent testing.
6. Effective limit teaching requires words and actions to be aligned.

Given that, it's pretty clear cut and dry.  I don't think the chapter needs more explanation than that.  However, this is a case where I feel that the book is definitely valuable as it gives some good examples to help better understand the points being made.  In some cases, like labeling children as compliant or strong willed, I'm not sure I entirely agree.  We all know how I feel about labels.  However, the author does make some really good points.

Where does this lead me in my quest to better understand my own family?  Well, I can honestly say it hasn't changed much.  It has shown me where some of my break-down in communication may stem from, but it still hasn't hit the point of altering my family life any.  All in all, while this chapter is very necessary to the flow of the book, I almost feel that it was just a repetition of the previous chapter under a different point of view.  While valuable, there isn't much to say on it.

There are three questions at the end of the chapter about rules and children along with answers to those questions.  One has more of a "permissive parenting" bend.  The other has more of a "punitive parenting" direction.  I wouldn't call it a bend as it's pretty obvious.  The third question, however, goes on to explain why consistency between parents is important, something I tried to no end to express to my ex, but was never able to get through.

Finally, as with every chapter, there are the study group questions.  Again, it seems like a rehash of questions from the previous chapters, kind of a reinforcing of the concept.

While I do understand the purpose of repetition on getting the point to sink in, I have to admit, it's quite frustrating to have the same points demonstrated over and over again, chapter after chapter.  I know the beginning of the book stated the first few chapters would be outlining the flaws in parenting styles, but I really wish they would get on to the point of changing behaviors and starting to work towards setting those limits and changing the family dynamic, rather than continuously repeating the same information.

Setting Limits Chapter 2: How Parents Teach Their Rules

This second chapter describes pretty well exactly what you would imagine it would.  Each action a parent takes communicates more than just the rules to a child.  It can also communicate mixed messages, statements that don't make sense, and invitations to test limits.  This chapter focuses on three approaches to communicating messages to children and how those messages communicate rules.  These three styles are listed as punitive, permissive, and democratic approaches.

The first discussed is the punitive approach to communicating rules.  The first example is a mother with two quarreling boys.  They diagram this interaction, which was an interesting way to look at how the situation was handled.  In this example, the mother's aggressive approach to disciplining the children and playing investigator to place blame not only causes the situation not to be resolved, but escalates it.  The second was a situation with a father who was stuck in a stale-mate with his own son.  In this example, the father admits that his father was the exact same way, to which he reacted with rebellion and anger, exactly like his son was reacting to his own discipline techniques.  Though this is a very vague description, the author makes a pretty good case for why this kind of discipline system does not work.  In the diagram you see what is communicated to the child with this approach, that all the power is held by the adults, parents are responsible for solving all problems, and hurtful or violent means of communication are acceptable.

The second discussed is the permissive approach to communicating rules.  In the first example we revisit the mother with two quarreling boys.  She tries to convince the two boys to stop fighting, but all her pleas, appeals and lecturing leave her with a determination to take away the toy they were arguing over.  Unfortunately, she is easily persuaded to give the toy back and finally gives up on the whole thing.  In a later example they talk about a child who never does what he's told and seems to believe that rules are not made to be followed.  He ignores his mother and pushes her regularly to the point where she can't take it anymore.  This may be an extreme example, but it goes to show the point.  In a permissive approach, children hold all the power, parents must again solve all the problems, parents are there to serve their children, and children learn to be self-centered and disrespectful.

The third approach is considered the democratic approach, though it's not really all that democratic.  It's more just a word to communicate that it's the balance between the two systems.  I have an extreme issue considering it democratic when it's got no sense of democracy to it, but we'll go with it for the sake of the review.  In the case with the mother, she quickly comes in and communicates that there's a problem and it will be resolved.  She allows the children cool down time before they discuss the problem, then goes on to come up with a solution.  She encourages the cooperation of the children and directs them to a swift resolution of the problem.  The second example is a three-year-old blowing bubbles in her milk at the table, who swiftly has the cup removed from her after a warming.  The one thing I do not like about this chapter is it states that the child gave the father a defiant look.  I'll be honest, I doubt in this case the child's look was what I'd consider defiant, but a lot of people view things differently when it comes to defiance.  The author points out that this form of discipline helps the child learn how to resolve the problem, they have freedom within their limitations, but limits are firm.

The chapter goes on to explain the mixed approach though it doesn't go into much detail.  This is used more as an opening to show how these parents who used the mixed approach were able to deal with bad behavior through this "democratic" communication style.  The example shows the child rebelling against it until he realizes he's not going to get away with his old tricks.  He then (of course) ends up complying, begrudgingly, and so changes the family's negative pattern.

The questions at the end of this chapter really focus on helping parents learn to identify these parenting styles through examples.  The goal seems to be to help identify the negative traits of each role so we might better recognize them in ourselves.  While I do value the concepts illustrated with these questions, I will admit, they do kind of make my eyes glaze over.

As I looked at my own life throughout this chapter, it was pretty clear where some of our problems have their roots.  For example, much of the reason my daughter resists my partner when he's enforcing the rules is the way he handles her.  More often than not he's very strict.  That incredibly strict nature leads her to want to push and rebel against him even more, especially where her father was so incredibly strict.  With me, I know I've had days where I fall into being permissive because I'm just too tired and worn out to bother with being firm.  I'll admit it, more often than not permissiveness is born out of laziness with me and I do sometimes fall a little towards the punitive side out of apparent need and encouragement from other parents and friends.  It's given me a lot of points where I can identify my own problems with my kids, especially my challenging older daughter, to try and get our household back in a little more order.

I have to say, while there is some of what  he's listed that I don't agree with, for the most part, his reasoning is pretty sound.  The points I don't always agree with are how to respond to a child's actions, like taking a cup away from a three year old for ten minutes because they were blowing bubbles.  I know from having a three year old that in ten minutes, they probably won't even be thinking about why the cup was taken away anymore.  It's the same reason why time-outs are set at one minute for each year of age.  Still I can see some value in what he's trying to get at here.

Setting Limits Chapter 1: Why Limits Are Important

I have to say, Setting Limits is perhaps the first book I've read that really talks about why children need firm boundaries and limits in their life, and I don't mean in the typically expected way.  Time and time again I've read parenting books that talk about setting limits so your children know what behavior is acceptable and what is not, with no regard for why your children need to know.  It comes across as "this is the rule because Mommy says so!" and there's no deeper understanding than that.  In this case, it's not about what the rules are, but why we need to have steady and reliable enforcement of those rules.


Yes, this chapter does go over the expected aspect of limits helping children define what kinds of behavior is acceptable and what is not.  It talks about how children "do research" and rules and boundaries are just one more way that they learn about their environment.  He mentions how children can measure their own growth and maturity as their limits get removed or made less restrictive, which is also a common topic.  However, it takes the whole concept on further than that.  The author, Robert J. MacKenzie, talks about how limits define relationships.  In truth, it's more the ability to enforce limits is the defining part of the relationship.  It's that whole idea of a power play.  If the child knows they can take the power, then where do they feel that they stand in the whole hierarchy of the household?  If they don't have to listen to their parents, doesn't that make them in charge?  On a related level, they talk about limits providing security for children, which makes a lot of sense.  If your parents roll over and die on a subject the first moment you give them a little resistance then how are they supposed to care for you and ensure for your safety?  It's definitely not something most parents think about.


The rest of the chapter goes on to talk about healthy boundaries and the results of ineffective boundaries on a child's behavior.  Outlined the way MacKenzie has written them, it does make a lot of sense.  He breaks things down into the groups of punitive parents, permissive parents, and inconsistent parents.  He also gives a good example for each category, followed by a good example of what balanced boundaries bring as a result.  While I have to say that I think all parents have moments of inconsistency, and none really fall into the punitive and over-controlling or permissive and under-controlling category, I can see some value to the examples he gives, especially as most parents tend more heavily to one direction or the other.  The whole thing is capped off with a small section on rules changing as children grow.


At the end of the chapter there's some parent study questions, sort of food for thought for anyone who is reading the book.  Since this book is based on a parenting workshop, it shouldn't be surprising.  I think all of the books I've seen of this nature have parent study questions, exercises, or something at the end of each section.  It makes perfect sense!  It's the best way to digest the material, and, more importantly, take what you need from it.  While I'm not going to go through and answer all the questions here, I do think it's valuable to put some of my observations of myself into this whole thing, in part because it solidifies it to see it in writing, but also because it kind of keeps a record of how things change, how my family is growing and adapting with each new step we take, and as a proof that I am only human and have my own flaws.  Finally, if you get a glimpse of what I'm observing about myself from this book, it gives you a much better idea of what you might learn from it than any cut and dry review ever could!


While I've grown a lot as a parent, I can see where my major flaws are.  As a parent, I tend to be really inconsistent.  By nature, I lean towards the permissive side.  When I was younger I kind of feel like my parents were very much the same way, more that they just didn't care what I did, so it didn't matter.  While, on the whole, I was a good kid, I did fail in most of my classes because I just didn't care to do my homework and had no work ethic in general, something I'm still struggling with today.  I was heavily pushed by my two oldest's father to be really strict with the kids.  If I wasn't strict with them, he would be and would take it much farther than I thought acceptable.  Punishments would last for hours on end for something incredibly simple and not even something I considered a punishable offense.  As a result of feeling pushed into being incredibly strict, I was forced into a sense of inconsistency.  I didn't really have the proper tools on board to be as strict as I was encouraged to be, so when I'm strict, I yell and get angry, not something I find productive, and I'm a bit too harsh on my kids.  I tend to do things like put them in time-out for longer than intended or give them punishments that don't make sense to fit the crime, both habits I had largely managed to avoid in my daughter's younger years but felt pressure to take up those behaviors.  I can also see another source of our tension, but it doesn't really relate to this chapter, or possibly this book at all.  It has to do with the actions I model, something else that's a hold-over from my own childhood and upbringing.


My partner has the same bend towards being too strict, though certainly nothing like my older two's father used to be, and probably still would be.  His family life was filled with rigid rules that he fought against every day.  Instead of helping him learn not to do the things he was being punished for, he would fight against it, break even more rules, and rebel.  Why should he care if he was just going to be punished anyways?  He and I have had some long talks about establishing boundaries that we can all live with, but in his eyes, it all comes down to respect.  Children are supposed to be obedient and that's the end of it.  More often than not the kids fight against his rules because they don't understand why the rules are even there to begin with, and he doesn't take the time to explain it so they can understand.  His idea of punishments don't always make sense either.


As a result, I've kind of been pushed to keep up with the strict side of things, even though I want to have a relaxed and casual home environment.  I get reminded regularly that my kids are "out of control" mostly by my older two's father, but my partner occasionally picks up the same sentiment when they don't listen.  To be fair, they're not out of control.  For the most part they are safe and pretty well mannered.  They're just kids acting like kids.  They're just not always obedient and respectful.  However, being more strict doesn't always lead to more obedient and more respectful kids.  In truth, it's been leading to the opposite.


Though my older two's father and I couldn't make it work, what my partner and I need to do as parents is step up and work together on this one.  We need to present a united front that's honestly balanced.  If nothing else, I know my kids will feel much more comfortable and be much more willing to follow the rules when they know why the rules are in place and they have a steady and predictable outcome to every rule.  Knowing they'll get one result from me, another from my partner, and yet other reactions still from our room mates is only going to serve to confuse them.  At least if my partner and I can keep some sense of consistency and balance, we'll be providing them with a family unit that gives them something they can rely on.


In all of this, I really do need to recognize that there's a lot of work to be done.  My partner and I both need to sit down and work on some techniques for communicating more positively with the children.  I know he's not their father, but he's been a consistent male role model in their lives for pretty much the past two years.  While I'm not going to push upon them that they need to look at him like a father or step-father, they do need to respect him as an adult and as a part of the family.  They need to be able to respect me as well, and if I'm a little more laid back and relax (with or without being overly permissive) and someone else is overruling everything I say, that teaches the kids they don't need to listen to me just as much as if I don't uphold my own limits and boundaries.  The situation might be different if he wasn't such a constant in my life.


We've got a lot of work to do.  That's one thing I will give this book credit for.  I can't say yet whether I'll agree with all the techniques provided, but I can already say, it's proven it's point.  It pinpointed one of the major conflicts my partner and I have been having on and off over the past two years, how to handle the children, and why my daughter in particular feels she can get away with breaking the rules and blatant disrespect towards the adults in her life.  We'll see how things go from here.

Chapter by Chapter Book Review Intro: Setting Limits

A couple years back I got a book from my grandmother for Christmas.  The book was Setting Limits by Robert J. MacKenzie.  I have to admit, after reading other books on parenting techniques, and knowing the way my family seems to view things from an outsider's point of view, I had a feeling this book and I would clash.  I'm very much an easy-going kind of parent, and I didn't want a book that would tell me that I had to train my children to be obedient and that was the end of it.  I wanted my children to have the freedom to question the rules so they could understand them.  This goes back to that whole Charlotte Mason habit training thing, you know, the subject I just won't let drop!  I'm sure you're sick of hearing about it by now!

Anyhow, I'd read this book, well, at least part way through it when I got it in the first place.  I put it down and failed to pick it up again when my children's father got home from Iraq.  I suggested he and I sit down and read it together, that it would help us both out with the children.  He swore we didn't need a book to tell us how to raise our children and he would get the children in line, so the book got dropped aside and I let him try things his way.

To be honest, I'd forgotten all about the book for quite some time.  He and I decided to get divorced, in part because of how he was with the children.  I had been trying to employ techniques from another book I'd gotten and was having resistance because the children didn't have any kind of consistency in their lives.  I felt like I was fighting them all the time.  I felt like I was fighting their father all the time.  Unfortunately, unless both parents are on board, no technique will ever last for long.

Some time after their father and I separated and I was already with my current partner, I'd found both this book and the other sitting on my bookshelf.  I decided to pull them out again.  It could be an interesting read, right?  It might give us something to work on together.  My children were still fighting me because of their habit of having such inconsistency between Mom and Dad.  My partner wasn't exactly on the same page as I was, so I thought reading a couple books together might help us find a balance point between us, some middle ground that the whole family could benefit from.  Of course, much is the trend in my life, things got chaotic and the book was put down before I could finish it.  Not only that, but my partner was so against reading it that he would look for any excuse to get out of it!  I think it's got to be a man thing.

Just recently with this whole Charlotte Mason habit training thing, I was reminded of the techniques I had been so striving to use with my children.  How had I gotten so off track?  I had taken all of the beliefs and practices I swore I'd use with my children and thrown them out the window!  This simply couldn't be happening.  As a result, I decided to come back to this book and a couple other books.  I decided I'd read through them and this time I was going to finish every single one of them.  As this was the first book I'd found, this would be the first book I started with.

I've decided to do two things with this book that I haven't done with any other book review I've done in the past.  I'm going to go through this book chapter by chapter and express how I feel about it.  I'm not going to re-write the book out in the blog.  If I were going to do that, I might as well just read you the whole book!  However, I'm going to share what I learn about myself, what I discover about my family, and the changes this book makes in our home life, if any.  If you're reading this blog, you're already following my journey through homeschooling, a struggle towards green living and sustainability, home and family life, and so much more.  Isn't this just one more layer?  More importantly, I'll have a way to check in and make sure I'm staying on track.  After all, if I start writing about doing things that are totally contrary to what I believe, or for my friends who see me regularly, I'm sure I'll get a whole slew of people reminding me to get back on track!